Sas or locker?

[CrazySteve911]

Wondering which one would be better. Pros and cons of each, all that good stuff.

I will be getting/doing one of these this summer (hopefully) and am looking for whatever one gives me more benefits.

Thanks in advance!

 

[Xterraforce]

Both! Personally I'd do a locker before a SAS but that's really more personal preference than anything. It's hard to compare the two really. I've owned 4x4s with both front suspension types and two with lockers. I CAN say my last one with a rear locker went places in 2wd that the one before it that had Dana 44s under both ends wouldn't go. Those were very different vehicles though so still not necessarily a fair comparison.

 

[CrazySteve911]

Would I get a locker for both axles or just one? I'm a noob with lockers haahah.

 

[gorillamel]

What year is your rig (I forgot)? The cost and ease of SAS will make a big difference as to what model X you have.

 

[CrazySteve911]

2001.

 

[Xterraforce]

Two would be great but one helps a lot. Lockers improve traction by providing power to both wheels on the end they're installed on any time the locker is engaged, or "locked". A SAS improves traction because it allows the front suspension to articulate, or flex better than the factory IFS. This keeps the tires in contact with the ground over more uneven terrain. One advantage a locker provides is in mud. The SAS won't help in mud because with open differentials you'll still be able to spin only one tire at each end. With at least one locker you're guaranteed to have both tires on that end working for you. In fact, in some cases IFS can be better in sticky situations. Assuming you'd be running the same size tires either way, our IFS has better ground clearance under the front because the differential is tucked up higher. A guy who used to work with me pointed out that I had more clearance in the front with stock suspension and 32 inch tires than his lifted Grand Cherokee on 35s.

 

[CrazySteve911]

So, they'd end up being about the same price right? Give or take?
A complete SAS and 2 lockers.

Clearance is a big thing for me, and I thought you GAINED some with the SAS so now im turning away from it ahaha.

 

[Xterraforce]

Price depends a lot on what kind of locker you get and how much of the work you would be doing yourself in either case. Keep in mind a front locker will make steering more difficult so you really need it to be selectable or at least have manual hubs. If you're set on having a front locker you may want to do things in stages. Rear locker, SAS and front locker. It wouldn't be cheap but you'd have an unstoppable X.

Either way remember any locker that's not selectable will have some quirks on the street. ARB lockers give you the best of both worlds but are also the most expensive option both on price and installation cost.

 

[drbandkgb]

To SAS a rig you're looking at 3k or more
Depending in how you do it. Calmini kit is 1500 I think plus you will need a axel coils or leaf springs

 

[Silver dude]

If you plan to drive it on the highway ever again lockers. Imagine your traction doubled and you have a good idea of what its like with lockers. Really takes the drama out of wheeling makes it far more relaxing with no sacrifices what so ever. Selectable lockers are a must for me sas or not. Sas I'd only do if I wheel frequently locally and had a second car to drive.

 

[CrazySteve911]

Alright. The nearest park that I can LEGALLY offroad at is 4 hours away. And I dont plan on moving anytime soon. So SAS is becoming less and less likely.

All the work will be done myself, or at least as much that can be done. Can the locker be installed personally? Or is that a shop job?

Also, by selectable, do you mean one that you can switch on and off? Are there lockers that are full time?

I plan on switching to manual hubs this summer.

 

[Xterraforce]

Yes, by selectable I mean being able to switch on and off. As far as I know the ARB air locker is the only selectable locker available for first gen Xterras. It's definitely on my to do list when funds are available. There are some "automatic" lockers available as well. A basic description of them is both wheels must rotate at least the same speed as the ring gear. The reason they're referred to as automatic is if they're not under much of a load they can "unlock" to allow one wheel to spin faster. For example, this would happen when turning since the wheel on the outside of the turn travels a greater distance, therefore it rotates faster than the inner one.

Where it get's interesting is when you're half way through a turn, especially in wet or snowy conditions, and the locker unlocks. I've had that happen and kick the rear end sideways many times with a Detroit Locker. It's one of those things that when you're used to it and expecting it, it's not a big deal other than sounding like you just broke an axle when it disengages. The other issue is when you're pulling out making a sharp turn you normally have enough of a load on the locker to keep it engaged so the inside wheel will be forced to spin faster. That can result in odd handling on slick surfaces and causes faster tire wear.

 

[CrazySteve911]

Ah okay, gotcha. So is there a difference between getting a locker for the front and one for the rear? Or are they the same design?

 

[NMTerras]

Depends what you mean by design...yes, they work the same way, but the one you order for your rear diff is going to be different than the one you order for your front (Let's just go ahead and assume ARB lockers, there's not much else in the way of alternatives for your rig, and it's the best anyway). Both will be actuated by air, and when on will provide constant power to both wheels which is a tremendous traction aid when, for instance one of the wheels has lost contact with the ground. With open diffs, the wheel in the air will get all the power (path of least resistance) and spin while the other wheel just sits there (and so do you). It's amazing how much of a difference even one locker makes to your rig's capability, and allows for much easier clearance of obstacles which with open diffs you might have to rely more heavily on momentum or, gasp, driving skill. Opinions vary on this, but if you're going to have only one (and that's a start) I say lock the rear. The counter-argument is it's easier to pull than to push, etc., etc., I just think rear is a better starting point because your rig behaves much more similarly with the rear locked to what it did when it was open, and you get used to it more easily.
What I've done with my first gen is installed a rear ARB locker, actuated by my powertank, and have allowed for eventual installation of the front locker in my execution of the rear install (Powertank sells a manifold you hook up to the Powertank, and lines run from it to both lockers).
Now, back to your original question, and subsequent things mentioned (lots of highway driving, wheeling not close to your house) I would say definitely do the locker(s) over the SAS, no question. The next wheeling-aid you could do, before a SAS, is crawler gears in your transfer case. With a rear locker and crawler gears, you can get up anything your rig fits over or through. Crawler gears are pricey, but not as pricey as a SAS. Drb's estimate of 3k is the bare minimum. Using the Calmini kit, in addition to what Drb said, you need a donor axle and coilovers. Figure realistically a minimum of 5k.

 

[CrazySteve911]

So Nm, what your saying is that when you have your front locker, only one air compressor will be controlling both the lockers? That was my next question, is if I had to buy an air compressor for each locker. Ahahaha.

I think i'll do rear first, because you can always momentum up a hill, but its usually the back tires that start to spin out as you dont have enough traction to actually grip the hill as your momentum runs out (or at least in most instances ive seen).

About how much are crawler gears and where could I find them? Will those affect on road performance or no?

Seriously guys, for everyone whos commented on this thread, thanks a bunch. I'm getting a lot more information than I expected.

 

[Xterraforce]

A couple of differences come to mind. First let me say I've never run a front locker in anything so this is not based on any real world experience.

A locker can put a lot more stress on axles. Our rear axles are much less likely to break since they don't have cv joints and locking hubs to deal with. To me, that's a good reason to have a locker in the rear.

It seems to me our Xterras lift a rear wheel off the ground far more often than the front. That's another reason I'd run a rear lockerr. With a locker and one wheel off the ground you still have power to the other wheel. To put the significance of that in perspective, remember that with a tire off the ground you only have one with traction, but that one now has the full weight of that end on it. That one tire has an incredible amount of traction. You'd be amazed with how much of an advantage that can be.

 

[NMTerras]

Yeah you run both lockers off of one air source, be it compressor or tank. Crawler gears are expensive. You can contact Dan at ORPP or Steevo at Rugged Rocks and they can point you in the right direction. Crawler gears replace the gears you have in your transfer case now that are 4 lo...doesn't affect on-road performance at all, it just means you're going slower in 4 lo (higher gear ratio). You can also just find another transfer case with crawler gears in it and swap (what I am in the process of doing). Another expensive mod, but still cheaper than a SAS.

 

[CrazySteve911]

Alright.

So as of right now, I am going to get a rear locker. If I start getting stuck or whatever, I'll get a front locker, and only use that one if I absolutely have to, so as not to cause too much stress on the front axle.

Thank you for clearing up A LOT.

 

[Roadwarrior]

Would it be worth it to replace our H223b with a HP D44 to get cheaper locker options? And possibly rebuild options..

Not to thread jack but I was planning on replacing both axles when I do my SAS (whenever that happens) because of the options that a D44 and a Ford 9" offer, for much less than our stock rear axle.. Opinions?

 

[CrazySteve911]

I allow this thread jack Road, as now im curious as well.

 

[TKDx00]

Would it be worth it to replace our H223b with a HP D44 to get cheaper locker options? And possibly rebuild options..

Not to thread jack but I was planning on replacing both axles when I do my SAS (whenever that happens) because of the options that a D44 and a Ford 9" offer, for much less than our stock rear axle.. Opinions?

Roadie... I did some research into switching the H223B for a Ford 9" not for SASing but for less expensive lockers and replacement parts. What I found is the H223B is a pretty tough bugger. Almost if not as strong as the Ford. Which is why one of our sponsors was trying to make one for the front. So what I was left with was weighing the cost of swapping just for a less costing locker and replacement parts if needed vs. keeping it and paying the premium locker price and replacement parts if needed. That's where I sit now.

 

[Roadwarrior]

I was not questioning its strength, I know that it is a beast of an axle, my issue is how limited the market is for the gearing and what not vs a d44 or 9". It might cost more up front, but break a locker on one vs break it on another... I doubt I (personally) will ever break one, but it could be something that others who wheel hard (luke) might take into consideration.

 

[Muadeeb]

It might cost more up front, but break a locker on one vs break it on another

I think that's the point TXD is is making. You'll spend more on the axle and locker for a D44 than you will for the life of a locked H223
$1200 for H223 (with shipping) vs ~$1000 for axle (quick j/y search - 2000 Wrangler spicer 44) and another 800+ for the locker. Once you get the axle, you'll have to make it fit the X, so there's added cost there too.

 

[Silver dude]

I prefer the front locker actually.
*Allows the front tires to climb up vertical rock faces.
* Easier on the front end. Rather then bouncing and shock loading the axles. The locker allows you to slowly lumber up overthings.
* The most of the weight is up front therefore traction.
* Climbing a vertical face the front has the least amount of traction and therefore needs the most assistance.
* The rear already has a LSD diff semi assisting traction where the front is completely open.

With that said the rear locker is easier and safer to use if you don't know what your doing. I use the rear locker more frequently then the front as generally all I need is a small push. The rear is also useful in 4x2 when you don't feel like climbing out to lock your hubs.

Ben

 

[TKDx00]

.... I use the rear locker more frequently then the front as generally all I need is a small push... Ben

I think I just learned something new here... When you engage the compressor to "lock" the diffs I thought it was both or nothing. The ARB compressor has settings for F/R/F&R? Or do you have 1 compressor for each?

 

[Xterraforce]

One compressor, two switches and solenoids if you have two lockers.

 

[TKDx00]

Yep...learned something new 2 switches/solenoids. Glad I bought all those Pilot switches...Thanks

 

[NMTerras]

I prefer the front locker actually.
*Allows the front tires to climb up vertical rock faces.
* Easier on the front end. Rather then bouncing and shock loading the axles. The locker allows you to slowly lumber up overthings.
* The most of the weight is up front therefore traction.
* Climbing a vertical face the front has the least amount of traction and therefore needs the most assistance.
* The rear already has a LSD diff semi assisting traction where the front is completely open.

With that said the rear locker is easier and safer to use if you don't know what your doing. I use the rear locker more frequently then the front as generally all I need is a small push. The rear is also useful in 4x2 when you don't feel like climbing out to lock your hubs.

Ben

Except the LSD is the exception, not the rule. As i recall more are open diffs than LSDs...and depending on the year, your LSD may be weak (2000, 2001) or worthless (2003-2004)

I agree there are times when the front locker might be more useful, but I think the rear as more widespread utility and application. Plus the easier and safer, which we agree on

 

[drbandkgb]

Ben.. I thought I read that people were breaking axels with the front locker pretty easy..
Seems like blueX wrote about it on Cx once

 

[Silver dude]

Yeah depends on the driver. Disengaging before turns, not throttling like a manic. I haven't seen people whom actually have front lockers actually break more shafts then normal under propper locker use. I've seen several bust their open axles. In my book its not the traction that breaks shafts. Its the erratic bouncing snatch and grab shock loading. With a locker on you can creep rather then race and roost. Which in therory reduces the shock to the axle in my mind. I went two years one of them at a week long gonemoab event. With only a front locker. When used properly I suffered no damage. Only time you should use lockers is after you can't make it in open and should exercise care. Not wide open throttle.

Though with that said I am having issues with bearings. I'm assuming that because the carrier is much heavier its eating thru carrier bearings. I still have my oem CV's after 178, 000 miles.

All said damage aside front locker still has larger gains offroad. Much like 4wd has larger gains then rear with a locker. I feel oem's do not provide front locker options do to soccer moms that don't have a clue. Its less hazardous to the consumer to provide a rear locker. Its also more economical fuel economy wise to build a light duty front axle that's rarely used. Rather then a heavy duty front end that can withstand a idiot turning the locker on on dry pavement at wide open throttle. Rear lockers are better selling points.

Ben

 

[xterror04]

It is kinda a preference think on axles, seems like if someone locks there factory axle they keep it for a sas, if its not locked or geared they ditch it and put in matching axles, I've toyed with the sas idea a lot, even had a chance to buy a front axle... But I decided not to for several reasons, one of the main ones is that I have never felt like I absolutely needed a solid axle to make it over an obstacle, if I had one I might try crazier stuff but for now my truck has always gotten me where I want to go, honestly I think he first beat step is to lock your rig, after all the wheeling I have done clearance hasn't been an issue, loss of traction has, and this is what I have noticed in wheeling in the south and in Moab.. 33's bring our first gens up off the ground a good amount... Another thing with the sas is we have wimpy motors, to run 35's comfortably you want to regear up to 5.14 at least, 5.38 is even better, especially in hilly areas... The sas is a lot of money, no matter who you know, or how you do it... To me the benefit doesn't outward the cost...

Another plus is say your out wheeling at a nissan event and you break on the trail, what are the chances of someone having spare parts for your ifs rig? Probably pretty good. Spare parts for your sas rig? Slim to none... Just food for thought...

Also have you ever had major breakages on your front suspension? I have had a few but nothing has ever been majorly expensive to repair, even after blowing my front diff and entire new one only cost me. $250 and that's a major compenet, I've also had a few steering issues but all parts there can be replaced relatively cheap as well (under $200)

Also how often do you wheel? Once a week? Once a month?

 

[CrazySteve911]

Right now I only wheel about once a month, but that will be more often as work will slow down after the summer so ill have more free time to wheel.

I'm just too caught up into work to wheel as much as i'd like.

 

[TheFauxFox]

It is kinda a preference think on axles, seems like if someone locks there factory axle they keep it for a sas, if its not locked or geared they ditch it and put in matching axles, I've toyed with the sas idea a lot, even had a chance to buy a front axle... But I decided not to for several reasons, one of the main ones is that I have never felt like I absolutely needed a solid axle to make it over an obstacle, if I had one I might try crazier stuff but for now my truck has always gotten me where I want to go, honestly I think he first beat step is to lock your rig, after all the wheeling I have done clearance hasn't been an issue, loss of traction has, and this is what I have noticed in wheeling in the south and in Moab.. 33's bring our first gens up off the ground a good amount... Another thing with the sas is we have wimpy motors, to run 35's comfortably you want to regear up to 5.14 at least, 5.38 is even better, especially in hilly areas... The sas is a lot of money, no matter who you know, or how you do it... To me the benefit doesn't outward the cost...

Another plus is say your out wheeling at a nissan event and you break on the trail, what are the chances of someone having spare parts for your ifs rig? Probably pretty good. Spare parts for your sas rig? Slim to none... Just food for thought...

Also have you ever had major breakages on your front suspension? I have had a few but nothing has ever been majorly expensive to repair, even after blowing my front diff and entire new one only cost me. $250 and that's a major compenet, I've also had a few steering issues but all parts there can be replaced relatively cheap as well (under $200)

Also how often do you wheel? Once a week? Once a month?

However, how often are there "Nissan Events?" I can bet money that someone else on a public trail will have D44/60 parts and that being more likely than having other Nissan parts.

The major breaking points with front solid axles are the steering arms, which is easily to prevent, and then axle shafts and hubs. If I were to continue my SAS and had more cash, the only reason I'd swap out the H233b would be for a D60+Locker after I broke something. Otherwise, keep it. Someone needs to make a lunchbox locker for our trucks.

I'd suggest just locking it unless you want to start doing some really serious rock climbing.

 

[xterraminator]

SAS will give you a more flex and clearance. If you don't have lockers your still have limited traction. Doing a SAS with out at least one locker is a waste of time.

When doing a SAS don't believe everybody that it will cost your $3000 or more. If you look around for a good axle, buy the joints, buy your own DOM tubing and buy a few pre-mfg trackbar, suspension mounts it can be done cheap. If y use the stock back axle and invert it and just replace the front axle with parts you can do it for under $1500. I am currently doing a SAS now and it will cost about $2000 and locked. be a smart shopper and do all of it yourself if you can.

 

[Frogstar7055]

SAS will give you a more flex and clearance. If you don't have lockers your still have limited traction. Doing a SAS with out at least one locker is a waste of time.

When doing a SAS don't believe everybody that it will cost your $3000 or more. If you look around for a good axle, buy the joints, buy your own DOM tubing and buy a few pre-mfg trackbar, suspension mounts it can be done cheap. If y use the stock back axle and invert it and just replace the front axle with parts you can do it for under $1500. I am currently doing a SAS now and it will cost about $2000 and locked. be a smart shopper and do all of it yourself if you can.

Huh? Your gonna invert a rear and put it on the front?
How you gonna steer?

 

[yellowx16]

I think maybe he's talking about going spring over axle in the rear, which then just leaves the front to fab up with a new axle for sas and have it all sitting level.

 

[xterraminator]

Your right yellowx16. If your doing a sas more lift will be required in the back so doing a spring over axle will be required. Sorry to confuse you. The back height is done last so that the truck gets level. I have choosen to do a coil and spring setup and others like coilover setup. A coilover I think is less work and probably costs less to do.

 

[TheBlueOompa]

this is a great thread. so much knowledge is being passed around, i have learned a lot and now want a real locker. i also had no idea first gens had an lsd. i have an 02 and living in snow country it is fun to break the rear loose every once in a while and sometimes it just wont and when it does its so easy to bring right back in line

 

[Intender]

Actually rugged rock has a h233 front axle housing for wd21, that might be able to work with an xterra. It says they are built to order so it might be possible to do it. Granted its not cheap just for a housing, but if you had a rear axle laying around to pull the parts from it could possibly be an option

https://ruggedrocksoffroad.com/niss...-57856.html?osCsid=fptjh86fljjtu6t87gj2okifj4

 

[SASXA]

What's everyone hate against solid front axles and highways? I mean, a lot of vehicles run solid axles on the highway. I never ran highway speeds because I have a second vehicle but still, I could run 60-65 mph no problem on 37's, you could run 70-75 easy on 35's and lower. I personally have solid front axle and 2 lockers, just because I need them, anything less and I'll get left behind in an instant.