SAS'ing

[ChiXterra]

Someone needs to get a thread going in this section....:smile:

I am going to start compiling parts for my SAS, so I thought I'd start a thread for it.

Front Axle: Ford Dana 44
Rear Axle: Ford 9"

This way I can get a matching set; high pinion, etc. I know I'll be dumping the Nissan rear axle (rumored to be stronger than the 9"), but this way I don't have to pay for the ARB locker.

Still undecided on rims yet, a lot will ride on the clearance of the brakes, etc.

I've got a line on the axles, and should be heading out to pick them up soon.

 

[TheFauxFox]

Oohhhhh snap! Been waiting for someone else to start up a SAS thread.

Have you decided what route you plan to go when it comes to hooking it all up? I've been doing a TON of research and asking around since early January and would be willing to point you in the right direction, to the best of my knowledge.

 

[ChiXterra]

Not completely sure on how I will hook it all up quite yet. My friend used to build literal monster trucks at a shop near his house, so he's been doing these kind of things for a while now. I am going to pick his brain a bit on the "hookup" of everything. But, I'd be willing to see what you've dug up. I am planning one thing at a time, and right now, I need a base to start the build on... thus the reason I am picking up the axles.

 

[TheFauxFox]

I've been throwing around the idea of a 3-link + panhard bar on a D44 out of a Wagoneer, but possibly a Bronco or F250, on coilovers. This job can be a lot cheaper if you/friends have basic fabrication, geometry and mathematics skills and the access to tools. I also have to convert to 4x4...

From the start, you will have to re-gear your D44 unless you find someone who has already swapped out everything. Go ahead and plan on doing that if you haven't already. I've heard 4.88s (similar to the 4.9 your H223b might have) could run 35's, but it would be slightly difficult. Everything pretty much depends on whether you plan to DD it or not.

 

[TKDx00]

Front Axle: Ford Dana 44, Rear Axle: Ford 9"

This way I can get a matching set; high pinion, etc. I know I'll be dumping the Nissan rear axle (rumored to be stronger than the 9"), but this way I don't have to pay for the ARB locker.

Since I don't know, I'll ask. Why don't you have to pay for the ARB locker? Are these axles already locked or is there some other maker for lockers in these axles?

 

[TheFauxFox]

Since I don't know, I'll ask. Why don't you have to pay for the ARB locker? Are these axles already locked or is there some other maker for lockers in these axles?

ARB (among very few others) is the only company that will lock our Nissan axles. What the OP meant was now they don't have to buy ARB and have the option to buy from one or two of several companies who make lockers for the Ford 9" and the D44. Some examples are Aussie, ARB, and Detriot as compared to just ARB (as being the most common).

 

[ChiXterra]

I've been throwing around the idea of a 3-link + panhard bar on a D44 out of a Wagoneer, but possibly a Bronco or F250, on coilovers. This job can be a lot cheaper if you/friends have basic fabrication, geometry and mathematics skills and the access to tools. I also have to convert to 4x4...

From the start, you will have to re-gear your D44 unless you find someone who has already swapped out everything. Go ahead and plan on doing that if you haven't already. I've heard 4.88s (similar to the 4.9 your H223b might have) could run 35's, but it would be slightly difficult. Everything pretty much depends on whether you plan to DD it or not.

That's why I plan to get rid of the stock axle with the 4.90's, and go with the Ford 9" with matching gearing to the Ford Dana 44. Mine will be coming out of a late 70's Bronco. I may use the stock Ford radius arms as well. Rear axle will use a new leaf pack (maybe Alcan), with an over axle setup. Once it gets an SAS, it will not be the DD.

 

[TKDx00]

Not as uninformed as I thought I was, just didn't put 2 and 2 together. I knew ARB was the only one for an X. What I wasn't sure of was there a maker of another parttime (air) locker for the axles. Detroit I thought was a full timer only.

 

[TheFauxFox]

May I suggest long travel radius arms? I've heard binding problems come with stock radius arms, such as those in Jeeps.

 

[Cyclemut]

You'll want to run 5.13's with the 35's. I ran those gears when I had 35's with my last SAS and the truck didn't know any different. Went into overdrive normally and cruise even worked normally. Speedo was pretty much on the money as well (only a couple of mph's different than my GPS at 75).

Of course, that was with a S/C engine that came stock with 4.63's.

As for the rear leaf setup, I'd pop for a set of 63" Chevy rear leaf spring packs, get the 3 leaf setup, the 4 leaf packs are too stiff. But you'll have to ditch the rear hangers and move the shackles to the back of the frame. Rough Stuff has some good stuff on that. http://www.ruffstuffspecialties.com/catalog/63SWP.html
That's what we use to SAS and flip axles.

For the front, it's a bit more difficult. You have to deal with the trans crossmember if you're going to long arm it. The after-cats also get in the way depending on the design of the radius arms. The front driveshaft also starts screaming for room too. If you go with front springs, then you have several other issues, such as getting the bell shackles in without having to punch into or reposition the after-cats as well. Springs in the front also gets in the way of the steering box at full stuff on the driver's side.

Plus, if you're not going to get the axle cut down and get the pumpkin centered in front of the t-case output, you won't be able to run the front hubs locked in at any higher speeds without a ton of vibration. We try to make it so that it's still usable in the winter as a DD.

I'll be doing my SAS in another month or so, we have to finish up our customer's SAS before I can get mine into the shop. I also have to convert over to 4x4 from the Texas rig that it is currently.

 

[TheFauxFox]

Great information. Mind keeping us up to date with your next SAS project?

 

[ChiXterra]

You'll want to run 5.13's with the 35's. I ran those gears when I had 35's with my last SAS and the truck didn't know any different. Went into overdrive normally and cruise even worked normally. Speedo was pretty much on the money as well (only a couple of mph's different than my GPS at 75).

Of course, that was with a S/C engine that came stock with 4.63's.

As for the rear leaf setup, I'd pop for a set of 63" Chevy rear leaf spring packs, get the 3 leaf setup, the 4 leaf packs are too stiff. But you'll have to ditch the rear hangers and move the shackles to the back of the frame. Rough Stuff has some good stuff on that. http://www.ruffstuffspecialties.com/catalog/63SWP.html
That's what we use to SAS and flip axles.

For the front, it's a bit more difficult. You have to deal with the trans crossmember if you're going to long arm it. The after-cats also get in the way depending on the design of the radius arms. The front driveshaft also starts screaming for room too. If you go with front springs, then you have several other issues, such as getting the bell shackles in without having to punch into or reposition the after-cats as well. Springs in the front also gets in the way of the steering box at full stuff on the driver's side.

Plus, if you're not going to get the axle cut down and get the pumpkin centered in front of the t-case output, you won't be able to run the front hubs locked in at any higher speeds without a ton of vibration. We try to make it so that it's still usable in the winter as a DD.

I'll be doing my SAS in another month or so, we have to finish up our customer's SAS before I can get mine into the shop. I also have to convert over to 4x4 from the Texas rig that it is currently.

I was definitely planning on 5.13's. Thanks for the link for those Chevy 63" leafs!

 

[ChiXterra]

I should have the axles in my hands on Friday afternoon.

 

[Cyclemut]

Great information. Mind keeping us up to date with your next SAS project?

Sure thing.

 

[Jmac289gt]

I will be watching and learning, and Cyclemut...please start an SAS on your rig as I value your input on this board seeing how you have already done this before...not to discredited anyone else at all.

 

[Cyclemut]

Actually, I've got about 6 rigs under my belt (we've been doing this for a while ).

Everything from leaf springs to coilovers to coils/shock, triangulated rears, 4 link rears, Pathy gas tank conversions, etc.

Just wait until I can get my Expidition Portal Next Gen started. That's gonna be my baby!

 

[ChiXterra]

Cyclemut: When you made the coilover conversion, did you fab shock hoops? Did you keep the stock axle in the rear, or did you end up going another route?

 

[Alpine Spirit]

Other Parts you will need
* Front Axle (80 – 85 Grand Waggoner Drivers side drop w/o vacuum disconnects)
** D44 warn hub kit… most of these axles do not have manual hubs.
* Coilover Shocks
* Front Driveshaft
* Front Sway Bar (somewhat optional)
* Rear Leaf Springs
* Front Drive Shaft Adapter Plate
* Maybe Gears for the axle… this will depend on the gearing you want to end up with.
* Gear Install Kit(s)
* New Bearings & Races, the axle is open replace it expecially if they are OLLLLLLLLLD, and they are more than likely
* New Yokes... switch them out to the Strap U Bolt style, easer to change out and the straps are stronger
* Optional – Spacers for the front axle… it is narrower than the stock axle, so you may want a wider stance.
* Wheels depending on what you end up with in bolt pattern. Older Nissan 6 on 5.5, Fords are normally 5 on 5.5, chevy trucks 6 on 5.5, toyora 6 on 5.5. Keep in mind you will need new wheels or spacers if you are going to try and run the nissan alloys on a D44, there is not enough clearance to for the brakes.
* Tires Obviously

Thoughts – My opinions and ideas
Coilovers
OK first of the Coil Overs… no these are not cheap. Do you have to use the ones form Calmini? No you do not I would recommend looking around online for Ranchos adjustable Coil Overs (RS9000x) this way you can adjust the valving for the vehicle.

If you want the best flex out of the vehicle get the reservoir coilovers, this allows more droop/flex than standard units.
Drive Shaft/Axle
Find a local shop to build one for you. Or even call up Tom Woods www.4xshaft.com.

It will be cheaper. Also keep in mind it will only take the shop a week or less to build a shaft for you. So finish everything up then get your measurements after it is done.

You will also need an adapter plate for the front of the Transfer case. This will adapt the Nissan bolt pattern to a sandard spicer pattern.

All SAS systems will need this. www.Grassroots4x4.com or www.4xshaft.com.

Oh and dont forget the D44 Hubs… all of these axles come with slugs in the front so they are always engaged. Replace em with the hubs but hold onto the slugs… why? Well if you break a hub on a trail you can put the slug back in and it will be engaged again so you can have fun the rest of the day.

Rear Leaf Springs
Now of course you are raising the front more so you have to get the rear to match.

Get a set of springs made to match YOUR vehicle. Call up Alcan Spings in Grand Junction. They will ask you a TON of questions about your vehicle and what is normally in the back then build the set to those specs. I think you will be much happieer in the long run.

 

[Cyclemut]

We had to fab up coilover mounts, similar to that of the standard shock hoops. Kevin (Alpine Spirit) is running some extended hoops (the Calmini hoops, just extended to fit better) without any issues. Ryan set those up, he did a great job and Kevin puts them to the test!

The ones we're building right now will mimic Kev's almost to the 'T', but the mounting will be a bit different. It depends on the length of the coilover, where you want to sit static (with all your normal weight in it) and what size tires you're running. The bump stops will also need to be set up so that you're not crushing your coilovers at stuff. You don't want the coilovers to be your bump stops.

With the current coilover build, we're keeping the same rear end. We're just adding 5.13 gearing with an ARB. Depending on the width of the front axle, you'll want to run spacers in the rear to match the front width.

If you run a different rear axle, say a Ford 9", then the width will be all right. You can still get the gearing you want (they make all the gears in the world for the 9") and lockers are available out the ying yang.

And Alpine Spirit's post above, treat it like a bible!

 

[ChiXterra]

Other Parts you will need
* Front Axle (80 – 85 Grand Waggoner Drivers side drop w/o vacuum disconnects)
** D44 warn hub kit… most of these axles do not have manual hubs.
* Coilover Shocks
* Front Driveshaft
* Front Sway Bar (somewhat optional)
* Rear Leaf Springs
* Front Drive Shaft Adapter Plate
* Maybe Gears for the axle… this will depend on the gearing you want to end up with.
* Gear Install Kit(s)
* New Bearings & Races, the axle is open replace it expecially if they are OLLLLLLLLLD, and they are more than likely
* New Yokes... switch them out to the Strap U Bolt style, easer to change out and the straps are stronger
* Optional – Spacers for the front axle… it is narrower than the stock axle, so you may want a wider stance.
* Wheels depending on what you end up with in bolt pattern. Older Nissan 6 on 5.5, Fords are normally 5 on 5.5, chevy trucks 6 on 5.5, toyora 6 on 5.5. Keep in mind you will need new wheels or spacers if you are going to try and run the nissan alloys on a D44, there is not enough clearance to for the brakes.
* Tires Obviously

Thoughts – My opinions and ideas
Coilovers
OK first of the Coil Overs… no these are not cheap. Do you have to use the ones form Calmini? No you do not I would recommend looking around online for Ranchos adjustable Coil Overs (RS9000x) this way you can adjust the valving for the vehicle.

If you want the best flex out of the vehicle get the reservoir coilovers, this allows more droop/flex than standard units.
Drive Shaft/Axle
Find a local shop to build one for you. Or even call up Tom Woods www.4xshaft.com.

It will be cheaper. Also keep in mind it will only take the shop a week or less to build a shaft for you. So finish everything up then get your measurements after it is done.

You will also need an adapter plate for the front of the Transfer case. This will adapt the Nissan bolt pattern to a sandard spicer pattern.

All SAS systems will need this. www.Grassroots4x4.com or www.4xshaft.com.

Oh and dont forget the D44 Hubs… all of these axles come with slugs in the front so they are always engaged. Replace em with the hubs but hold onto the slugs… why? Well if you break a hub on a trail you can put the slug back in and it will be engaged again so you can have fun the rest of the day.

Rear Leaf Springs
Now of course you are raising the front more so you have to get the rear to match.

Get a set of springs made to match YOUR vehicle. Call up Alcan Spings in Grand Junction. They will ask you a TON of questions about your vehicle and what is normally in the back then build the set to those specs. I think you will be much happieer in the long run.

When you say there is not enough clearance for the old Nissan wheels: are you referring to the 15" wheels, or 16" wheels?

We had to fab up coilover mounts, similar to that of the standard shock hoops. Kevin (Alpine Spirit) is running some extended hoops (the Calmini hoops, just extended to fit better) without any issues. Ryan set those up, he did a great job and Kevin puts them to the test!

The ones we're building right now will mimic Kev's almost to the 'T', but the mounting will be a bit different. It depends on the length of the coilover, where you want to sit static (with all your normal weight in it) and what size tires you're running. The bump stops will also need to be set up so that you're not crushing your coilovers at stuff. You don't want the coilovers to be your bump stops.

With the current coilover build, we're keeping the same rear end. We're just adding 5.13 gearing with an ARB. Depending on the width of the front axle, you'll want to run spacers in the rear to match the front width.

If you run a different rear axle, say a Ford 9", then the width will be all right. You can still get the gearing you want (they make all the gears in the world for the 9") and lockers are available out the ying yang.

And Alpine Spirit's post above, treat it like a bible!

I will be running a matching set of axles out of a '79 Ford Bronco. It will use the Dana 44 front, and Ford 9" rear. 5.13 gearing all the way around, with some quality Yukon gears in the rear, and some Motive gears up front. The rear axle is getting a update: instead of sticking with the drum brake system, I have chosen to go the route of converting it to a disc brake system. So, I have to order the adapters, and I get to use some rear brakes off a Olds Toronado. Yukon lockers front and rear as well.

 

[TheFauxFox]

When you say there is not enough clearance for the old Nissan wheels: are you referring to the 15" wheels, or 16" wheels?

The 15" rims that come stock won't fit because of backspacing. If you get some wheel spacers, 1.5", they should theoretically fit.

 

[Cyclemut]

When you say there is not enough clearance for the old Nissan wheels: are you referring to the 15" wheels, or 16" wheels?



I will be running a matching set of axles out of a '79 Ford Bronco. It will use the Dana 44 front, and Ford 9" rear. 5.13 gearing all the way around, with some quality Yukon gears in the rear, and some Motive gears up front. The rear axle is getting a update: instead of sticking with the drum brake system, I have chosen to go the route of converting it to a disc brake system. So, I have to order the adapters, and I get to use some rear brakes off a Olds Toronado. Yukon lockers front and rear as well.

I would recommend that you use a master cylinder out of a 90's 300ZX that had the disc/disc braking system. If you use a Chevy m/c, you will run into issues with the rear brakes if you convert to disc rear. Personally, as light as the X is, drums work just great with the 9", they're a lot bigger than the stock X drum brakes.

 

[ChiXterra]

What kind of travel do you guys run on the coilovers, and what weight/length of springs?

 

[ChiXterra]

Man, that Dana 44 just about killed me. It took 3 of us to effectively move it. Thankfully my neighbor has a tractor so we could lift the Dana 44 out of the trailer. The 9" was light enough to carry.

 

[ChiXterra]

So, is an extended pitman arm needed, or is the stocker haver enough drop for the conversion?

 

[Cyclemut]

We're running longer than stock pitman arms due to the length of the steering arms on the D44 axle. It makes turning much better, especially if you're going to run hydro assist in the future.

 

[ChiXterra]

We're running longer than stock pitman arms due to the length of the steering arms on the D44 axle. It makes turning much better, especially if you're going to run hydro assist in the future.

Assuming that you have the D44 Wagoneer axle, do you use the stock steering linkage, or did you make your own/upgrade to something off of a ford 1/2 ton/chevy 1/2 ton? I have heard it both ways: Josh (Casper/Casper the 2nd as known on many forums) runs a drilled out stock pitman arm. He upgraded the waggy linkage to chevy 1/2 ton stuff, so he had to drill out the arm to accept the larger bolt.

 

[Cyclemut]

We don't use those small things. We use Ford high pinion D44's. And we mix and match for the optimal parts depending on what the customer wants. I know Josh, I'll be building his transfer case after Moab.

If you want hi-steer, then use the Chevy knuckles and have them drilled and tapped. If you don't want hi-steer, then use the inverted T steering setup with anti-roll bushings on top of the tie rods and drag link ends. The one we're building now (or rather, finishing up) is set up with the anti-roll bushings, nice and tight steering. We just used heavy duty rod ends and made our own tie rod bar and drag link (and track bar). We used a Toyota arm (aftermarket) and had to key it to fit the Nissan box. It's longer but came drilled out for the 1/2 ton joint.

If you start out with an actual 1/2 ton front axle, you don't have to drill anything out. And if the customer wants full width stuff, that's what we give them (65" wide), but for customers that want to use their 4x4 in the winter and go with their hubs locked in, but the t-case in 4x2, then we also make a custom Haxle that will allow that with no vibration. We're fancy like that.

 

[ChiXterra]

We don't use those small things. We use Ford high pinion D44's. And we mix and match for the optimal parts depending on what the customer wants. I know Josh, I'll be building his transfer case after Moab.

If you want hi-steer, then use the Chevy knuckles and have them drilled and tapped. If you don't want hi-steer, then use the inverted T steering setup with anti-roll bushings on top of the tie rods and drag link ends. The one we're building now (or rather, finishing up) is set up with the anti-roll bushings, nice and tight steering. We just used heavy duty rod ends and made our own tie rod bar and drag link (and track bar). We used a Toyota arm (aftermarket) and had to key it to fit the Nissan box. It's longer but came drilled out for the 1/2 ton joint.

If you start out with an actual 1/2 ton front axle, you don't have to drill anything out. And if the customer wants full width stuff, that's what we give them (65" wide), but for customers that want to use their 4x4 in the winter and go with their hubs locked in, but the t-case in 4x2, then we also make a custom Haxle that will allow that with no vibration. We're fancy like that.

Interesting info. Thanks!

 

[Alpine Spirit]

Steering alot of us are running....
http://completeoffroad.com/i-124127-tie-rod-and-drag-link-kit-dana-3044-and-60.html

 

[ChiXterra]

Steering alot of us are running....
http://completeoffroad.com/i-124127-tie-rod-and-drag-link-kit-dana-3044-and-60.html

Thanks for the link!

 

[ChiXterra]

Ok, I have been thinking on how/where I am going to mount bumpstops. As Cyclemut said, I don't want my coilovers to be my bumpstops. I presume the Calmini kit has a way to take care of that. But, because I am not using that, I need to figure out another way to do it. Since several of you have experience with the SAS, what are your experiences?

 

[midget]

Buy cheap bumpstop from autozone & build bracket..... Diy4x has an adjustable bump stop setup. I think it runs around $40 per side.
There website is diy4x.com & they have alot of good fab parts on hand t good prices.

O & you might as well extend those radius arms and remove the bushing for a nice big heim.

 

[ChiXterra]

Buy cheap bumpstop from autozone & build bracket..... Diy4x has an adjustable bump stop setup. I think it runs around $40 per side.
There website is diy4x.com & they have alot of good fab parts on hand t good prices.

O & you might as well extend those radius arms and remove the bushing for a nice big heim.

Already done, er planning on doing.

Thanks for the website!

 

[Cyclemut]

Next to the lower coilover mount, we weld a pad to the axle (just a flat pad). On the frame, where that pad comes up to, weld a tube with an inexpensive round poly bumpstop. The tube will be the right length as to stop the axle just before bottoming out the coilover. It's one of the the last things you do in the entire project. You'll actually want to ramp the rig to get the angle of the dangle (of the bumpstop tube) just right so that the bump stop hits that pad in the center.

 

[TKDx00]

SAS noob question here.

Would it be cheaper (in the long run) to purchase a complete axle assembly from a company that makes them, Foothills (example) rather than piecing one together? That is if you had all the money at one time to go in either direction.

 

[midget]

Cheaper probably not but simpler yeah I would agree that. If I was going to order a custom axle I would get a yota flipped to drivers drop and dirty 30 shafts. Cheaper and stronger than a D44.

 

[TKDx00]

Cheaper probably not but simpler yeah I would agree that. If I was going to order a custom axle I would get a yota flipped to drivers drop and dirty 30 shafts. Cheaper and stronger than a D44.

I would suspect a dirty 30 would be like a D30 and you say they're stronger than a D44? What about Longfield then if I'm building the axle?

I should clearify something. I meant piece together a SAS upgrade overall and not just the axles. And I'm just blueskying here. Not in ANY position to SAS... at the moment.

 

[midget]

A dirty 30 is a axle upgrade for the Toyota axles. The only thing a d30 is good for is education teaching how things break....

Link. http://www.frontier4x4.com/Trail-GearDirty30s30SplineToyotaBirfieldAxleKit

AS far as going completely custom being cheaper more expensive well thats really hard to say bc of the variables. I mea the price difference between leaves,coils,coilovers alone will swing between $100-$1500.

 

[greengoon]

We're running longer than stock pitman arms due to the length of the steering arms on the D44 axle. It makes turning much better, especially if you're going to run hydro assist in the future.

Is anyone running hydro assist? How did you set it up? I'm running a D44 out of a waggy and I want to upgrade the pitman arm and power steering.