Ethanol Conversion

[Cruecible]

I have no first hand experience with ethanol or methanol, and the limited knowledge I did have about E85 was that at first it was hailed as the new "street racer" fuel of choice. A friend of a friend ran it and had a tune made for his car to run it and saw pretty healthy HP gains. That same friend later went on to remove the tun from his car and stopped running E85 because he heard that it breaks down the internals much faster than conventional gas. Aside from that, I also heard second-hand that flex fuel fleet cars that were running E85 also were showing abnormally pronounced engine wear. I never saw proof of this nor looked into any actual science about it.

Now, I know this may be a raw subject for some folks, but I've been looking more into the E85 and the use of ethanol and/or methanol in regular "everyday" cars. It's really hard to find what I would consider real, concrete evidence of either pros or cons of using ethanol as anything for it's use could be considered "hippy propaganda" and anything against it's use (or pro-gasoline only) could be considered government or big oil lobbying propaganda. I don't want to get into a political debate here, or hear about how alternative fuels could destroy tons of American jobs in the process. What I want to know is; has anyone had real first-hand experience with using E85 in an Xterra?

In my limited research so far, practically any car that is American made from the mid-90's and up is "flex fuel" compatible. Mechanically speaking, there is no difference between a "normal fuel" vehicle and a flex-fuel vehicle. The only thing that separates them is the tune on the ECU. Which falls in line with my limited understanding through the aforementioned friend of a friend. There are conversion kits available and unfortunately there seems to be quite a few different styles on the market. The most reputable one I could find is about $400, and it's a piggyback type of programmer that re-maps the ECU to be able to run gas, ethanol, methanol, or any combination. From what I have read, E85 has a general octane rating of 98, and has been shown to be very effective and friendly in forced-induction applications (mine being supercharged, this is pretty cool). According to the info found here: https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/ethanol.shtml it says that generally a vehicle will get less MPG's that conventional gas and that the cost per gallon of E85 is not too much cheaper than regular gas.

Here is the site for the conversion kit: https://www.change2e85.com/index.php?route=common/home

If my Xterra wasn't a daily driver, I would buy the conversion kit to give it a try and see if it works. While using the E85, I would periodically check the engine for signs of wear and monitor it very closely. And even though it is a daily driver, this still sounds interesting enough to give it a shot.

What do you guys think?

 

[Muadeeb]

I'm not optimistic, mostly because of the engine damage that happens. Also, the VG ECU is too stupid to take most programmers. This is because it doesn't have the ability to take a new tune from the OBD port. If their programmer is one that requires modification to the ECU, then that will be a plus, but I'd still be real hesitant to do anything like this

 

[Cruecible]

(I edited the first post to include a link to the conversion kit website.) Specifically what damage would occur from running E85? My understanding of this kit is that it plugs into the fuel injector sensors and has nothing to do with the OBD II port. It also needs to be grounded, so I'm assuming that it does get it's power off the fuel injector sensor harness (which it says in the instruction section).

I just don't know enough about the pros and cons of E85, and don't want to take what the kit's site says as gospel. In the FAQ section, it says the whole engine damage thing is crap, and was started out of the older ethanol fuels using ~50% water mix and older engines with different materials used in the engine. IE: cork fittings, brass parts, and not using synthetic materials like hoses and fittings. From doing some more searching around the web, I haven't come across any definitive proof of ethanol damaging a modern engine, as it burns cleaner and cooler than conventional gas. Again, it just has problems in older engines in drying out cork fittings and destroying brass components.

 

[SASXA]

If you want E85, put bigger injectors in, it doesn't produce the same amount of energy as regular gasoline, so it requires more fuel to get the same amount of power as gasoline. Using gasoline as a base mark - Gas : 97% - 100% With 112,114 -116,090 Btu/gal E85 : 1 gallon of E85 has 73% to 83% of the energy of one gallon of gasoline (variation due to ethanol content in E85). 1 gallon of E10 has 96.7% if the energy of one gallon of gasoline. With 76,330 Btu/gal for E100.

Source : http://www.afdc.energy.gov/fuels/fuel_comparison_chart.pdf

 

[Muadeeb]

Here's a story from 2009 on E10+ damaging fuel rails and pumps (and not covered under warranty)
http://www.rense.com/general85/eth.htm
The author is local to DFW, and I've worked with him so I, at least, do value his commentary.

Looking at the kit you linked, there are only plugs for the injectors. There are no sensors in the injectors, just a solenoid that is told to pulse to inject the fuel.





Let that sink in a moment...








How does the system know the % ethanol you're running? It says to run a 50/50 mix for a tank, then a full E85 for a tank, then whatever you want, but HOW DOES IT KNOW WHAT YOU'RE RUNNING??

That these engines continue to run with this box is astounding to me.

Here's some crazy Aussies that converted a Subie Wagon to run E85 while trying to make it a super car.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cnlxM4tq50&t=21m45s
That will take you to where they are talking about a fuel sensor to tell their CUSTOM ECU what the ethanol content is (21:45 if it doesn't link right). In Ep 9, they actually hook it to a dyno and tune it.

I'm highly doubtful of this kit.

 

[Cruecible]

Fair enough, and you make a valid point that I would love to call the company and ask them. Although, I'm assuming that's what the "E85 ethanol conversion computer" is for, but I don't know how it works. I appreciate the info; this is exactly what I'm trying to gather and compile what I can from hopefully unbiased sources. The guy who wrote that article also hosts a conspiracy-based (depending on your views) website from Texas. Now, I haven't gone through to verify all the sources, but at face value it's a little difficult to take his information as fact but I respect it. It seems this is a definitely a topic with tons of information for both sides. I'm genuinely trying to be as unbiased as possible, and it's not like I'm hovering the mouse over the "buy now" button and looking for people to talk me into it lol.

SASXA, I understand the lower energy output and found that in a few other places too. From my understanding, there is no requirement for bigger injectors, but MPG is noticeably lower while using E85. Most people have stated they wouldn't even use it until the cost of E85 is low enough to offset the loss of MPG, making it at the very least the same cost to operate as using regular gas. My MPG already sucks as it is, so if I was seriously considering doing this, the cost of E85 would need to be around a dollar for me lol. I'm sure someone could do the math of what the break even point is with MPG's and cost of E85 and gas, but I'm not going to.

Edit: After reading some more, there is the need for more E85 to be used than gas for a combustion cycle. However, there is no mechanical difference in injectors between a flex fuel model and it's "normal" counterpart because the computer adjusts the trim accordingly, which results in less MPG because more is being sent in. How much less MPG than gas, I'm still not sure. Some folks stated they went from like 22 combined down to 14.

 

[SASXA]

I don't see a need for it, unless you want to go full on tune, it won't be useful other than a "cool" factor to say you did it.