3" SL Setup Questions

[Aqua Mane]

I already have the 1.5" AC shackles and 3" bilstein shocks all the way around for my PML on 31" duratracs. I'm doing the full 3" SL now but not sure which parts to go with.. (not including HD torsion bars which I already ordered)

Should I go with this kit with the AAL included and get an idler arm brace sepreately http://www.4x4parts.com/i-18981160-xterra-suspension-lift.html
-----($500 TOTAL)-----

OR

Should I go with this kit without the AAL (but idler arm brace included) http://www.4x4parts.com/i-18981163-xterra-front-lift-with-idler-arm-brace.html
and go with the PRG dual AAL for the rear http://www.prgproducts.com/shop/product/xterra-25-dual-aal/
-----($580 TOTAL)-----

..I've heard good things about the PRG AAL, curious to see what yall think. (For those who don't know the PRG AAL fits 1st gens too)

ALSO! VERY IMPORTANT! I want as close to NO RAKE as possible. I know why our trucks have rake I just don't like the look. Not sure how much rake is normal out of the 3" SL but I will go the route that gives me the least rake regardless of price. Thanks!

 

[ellisfamilyokc]

I don't know what the best choice for you is. But, I can tell you that with the 4x4 parts aal 3 pack and the 1.5" shackles you get lots of rake.

 

[Aqua Mane]

Gotcha. So should I just get UCAs and keep the rear as it is with just the shackles? OR maybe get the AAL and put my stock shackles back on to level it out? Sweet rig btw man, very nice

 

[Intender]

I have an aal, but not the prg, and I would say I had somewhere around 3 inch difference between front and back running stock shackles. after I added revolvers it was probably closer to 3.5 or 4. if you want little or no rake I would get the uca first and jack the front up and see what it looks like. I think when I did the math when I bought my kit it was the same price as a kit or individually, the kit just makes it easier to order.

 

[Aqua Mane]

Thanks for the info man. I think that's what I'll do

 

[ellisfamilyokc]

I second what Intender said. Just piece it together. Thats what I did no regrets.

 

[robcarync]

Keep the PML shackles and get the UCAs. That will give you good control over your rake and plenty of room for alignment. You can max out the front and then see what you want to do with the rear.

What I did was get the Adjustable shackles from 4x4parts.com. the tallest setting is 2 1/8"...that gave me a little more height in the rear compared to the PML, and I cranked the UCAs up all the way. I still had about a 0.75" rake lower in the front.

Since you already have the PML shackles, I wouldn't bother going back and swapping them again. not worth the effort to go up 0.5" of lift height.

 

[Aqua Mane]

That makes sense. robcarync, did your x come with the factory trailer hitch / extra leaf spring? Mine did and I want to make sure I would get the same results as you if I got the larger shackles. I'm at around 1.5" of rake right now so after the UCA's give me another 1.5", anything more than my 1.5" shackles would just increase the rake right? Sounds like I need to leave the rear alone to keep it level. Thanks for the help btw guys

 

[robcarync]

Mine did not come with the factory hitch. Honestly, I recently cut off the last hole on the shackle so it is now the exact length of the PML shackle. I was fighting alignment issues and thought lowering the front lift would help, so I dropped the shackle one level to match.

Keep the PML shackle, get the UCAs to get you that front end lift, and see how high you can go with it while maintaining bump stop gaps. If you want more lift in the rear, go with the adjustable shackles and sell your PML shackles.

The rear of the truck is easy to lift...so don't think you need to go get every option out there. Anything more than the adjustable shackle increases your rake when paired with UCAs. Even the PML will increase your rake if you follow the bump stop gap guidelines. Personally, I never liked adding leaf springs since it stiffens up the rear and reduces flex. I don't tow or carry a lot of cargo to need the extra support, so I specifically avoided anything with new leaf springs.

Also, note that the truck should have a slight rake by design (for aerodynamics, braking, etc). I don't keep mine perfectly level, but I try to keep it low at ~0.5" from front to rear of my slider. Less than stock, but I haven't noticed any negative side effects.

 

[TheFauxFox]

Mine did not come with the factory hitch. Honestly, I recently cut off the last hole on the shackle so it is now the exact length of the PML shackle. I was fighting alignment issues and thought lowering the front lift would help, so I dropped the shackle one level to match.

Keep the PML shackle, get the UCAs to get you that front end lift, and see how high you can go with it while maintaining bump stop gaps. If you want more lift in the rear, go with the adjustable shackles and sell your PML shackles.

The rear of the truck is easy to lift...so don't think you need to go get every option out there. Anything more than the adjustable shackle increases your rake when paired with UCAs. Even the PML will increase your rake if you follow the bump stop gap guidelines. Personally, I never liked adding leaf springs since it stiffens up the rear and reduces flex. I don't tow or carry a lot of cargo to need the extra support, so I specifically avoided anything with new leaf springs.

Also, note that the truck should have a slight rake by design (for aerodynamics, braking, etc). I don't keep mine perfectly level, but I try to keep it low at ~0.5" from front to rear of my slider. Less than stock, but I haven't noticed any negative side effects.

Following/backing up this opinion:
Getting new leaf springs would be recommended if your stock spring start sagging and/or you buy a heavier bumper (+ tire carrier) or start towing more frequently.

 

[Aqua Mane]

Okay just want to double check I'm getting all the parts I need before i make the order. New UCA's, idler arm brace, and torsion bars. Is that all I need for the front lift?

 

[robcarync]

You don't need torsion bars for the front lift. The torsion bars are just stiffer, which helps with support extra weight and armor. You can certainly add them, but it isn't really necessary for the lift.

UCAs are the ONLY thing you need for the front 3" suspension lift. Idler arm brace definitely helps the steering system. As you change the suspension geometry, the steering components get stressed more, so the brace will help with that, and is pretty cheap.

 

[Aqua Mane]

Got it. I'm also about to order an ARB bumper along with the front lift so i figured the torsion bars will help with the new weight up front

 

[robcarync]

Sounds like a good plan!

 

[ellisfamilyokc]

Torsion bars are not a bad idea. Mine would have need to be re-indexed for more lift when I added my UCAs. But they were so seized that I destroyed them getting them off.


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[Prime]

If you're doing a front bumper, I'd definitely suggest doing the torsion bars. As you'd likely have to re-index the stockers anyway for the lift, replacing them is just as easy but now you have a higher spring rate that can carry more load.

Worth noting, that when I installed the Sway-Away torsion bars, I had to start my adjusters at 20º in order to get the ride height correct for the 3" lift. The stock bars call for starting the adjusters at 40º but the higher spring rate of the new bars made it impossible to get the ride height correct and get the adjusters flush with the crossmember.

Speaking of load capacity, my suggestion if you don't want the rake but aren't ready to go full on crazy w/ new leaf springs is to do the AAL and stock shackles. It'll freshen the pack up, give you some more load capacity, and you won't be sitting too high.

That being said, my truck has barely any rake & I have the Calmini AAL & AAC PML shackles.

 

[01XterraPhilly]

personally i had the PML with the calmini shackles and I didnt feel like taking them out and swapping for the stock ones. Would have been a waste of money so i went with the calmini AAL for 1.5" and the AC UCAs for the front (already had the t-bars cranked). It came out good and I had the factory rake

 

[TJTJ]

Just a note:

The AAL hurt wheel travel and stiffen the ride, and the lift shackles add wheel travel and soften the ride.

As the PML meant you already have the shackles...all you'd do now is lift the front.

As you ARE adding front weight, the HD T bars are fine...but its that UCA swap that allows alignment at the 3" front lift height...but doesn't add lift.

Be sure to get some anti-seize compound, and slather it liberally onto the moving parts' threads and the splines/anchors/adjusters before installing them. You will thank me later.




So, the X works best/gets better mpg, etc, with the nose ~ 1.5" lower than the butt, but, you don't care, because for you, its more about looks than function...and, you just don't like the way it looks....so, you can leave the butt raised ~ 1.5" from the PML shackles, and raise the front ~ 3", so that it catches up to the butt lift, and, you're ~ level.

This will work better than AAL and stock shackles, as stock shackles can't swing in/out as far, and, you will lose too much wheel travel.

You might think about ditching that load leaf back there to reduce the number of times it will snag/act as a road grader off road. Removing it also adds ~ 1" of shock droop, as it effectively raises the lower shock mount by ~ 1"...so the shock can let the axle down a bit farther.

I'm assuming you don't NEED the load leaf, as that's for when you have a heavy load back there...and, if you put weight back there, it would now make your headlights point at the sky, etc...so, you'd be limited to daytime hauling only, etc.

 

[robcarync]

Just a note:

The AAL hurt wheel travel and stiffen the ride, and the lift shackles add wheel travel and soften the ride.

As the PML meant you already have the shackles...all you'd do now is lift the front.

As you ARE adding front weight, the HD T bars are fine...but its that UCA swap that allows alignment at the 3" front lift height...but doesn't add lift.

Be sure to get some anti-seize compound, and slather it liberally onto the moving parts' threads and the splines/anchors/adjusters before installing them. You will thank me later.




So, the X works best/gets better mpg, etc, with the nose ~ 1.5" lower than the butt, but, you don't care, because for you, its more about looks than function...and, you just don't like the way it looks....so, you can leave the butt raised ~ 1.5" from the PML shackles, and raise the front ~ 3", so that it catches up to the butt lift, and, you're ~ level.

This will work better than AAL and stock shackles, as stock shackles can't swing in/out as far, and, you will lose too much wheel travel.

You might think about ditching that load leaf back there to reduce the number of times it will snag/act as a road grader off road. Removing it also adds ~ 1" of shock droop, as it effectively raises the lower shock mount by ~ 1"...so the shock can let the axle down a bit farther.

I'm assuming you don't NEED the load leaf, as that's for when you have a heavy load back there...and, if you put weight back there, it would now make your headlights point at the sky, etc...so, you'd be limited to daytime hauling only, etc.

I know 1.5" is the widely accepted stock rake...but mine was quite a bit more when stock. After adjusting to 1/2" bump stop gap for the PML shackle, it went up to about 2+". Even now with lifting the front with UCAs and having the rear shackles only at PML height...I still have ~1" of rake...That is with about 0.75" gap to a low profile bump stop....so about 0.5" to the stock ones. If I had added the extra 1.5" of lift, I'd be back at a 2.5" rake.

I know that theoretically...if you have a higher rake, that means you have more room to adjust your torsion bars upwards...but it just didn't work out that way on mine.

In my experience with the Xterra... IFS is very limiting with how much lift you can get out of it without destroying your alignment and steering, but the rear leaf springs and shackle combinations are endless. It is much easier/reliable to lift the rear than the front, which often times leads to a ridiculously high butt and a nose dive front end, even with the UCAs.

That is why I recommend putting the UCAs on, adjusting it up, and re-evaluating your options. I essentially have PML shackles and UCAs in the front, and still have a 1" rake...far from taking away function and definitely not perfectly level as the common math would make you think.

 

[TJTJ]

I know 1.5" is the widely accepted stock rake...but mine was quite a bit more when stock. After adjusting to 1/2" bump stop gap for the PML shackle, it went up to about 2+". Even now with lifting the front with UCAs and having the rear shackles only at PML height...I still have ~1" of rake...That is with about 0.75" gap to a low profile bump stop....so about 0.5" to the stock ones. If I had added the extra 1.5" of lift, I'd be back at a 2.5" rake.

I know that theoretically...if you have a higher rake, that means you have more room to adjust your torsion bars upwards...but it just didn't work out that way on mine.

In my experience with the Xterra... IFS is very limiting with how much lift you can get out of it without destroying your alignment and steering, but the rear leaf springs and shackle combinations are endless. It is much easier/reliable to lift the rear than the front, which often times leads to a ridiculously high butt and a nose dive front end, even with the UCAs.

That is why I recommend putting the UCAs on, adjusting it up, and re-evaluating your options. I essentially have PML shackles and UCAs in the front, and still have a 1" rake...far from taking away function and definitely not perfectly level as the common math would make you think.

LOL

Well, sure, if you had already sagged or been set too low, you'll "Get more lift"...but, that's why we refer to the upper bump stop gap as defining the lift.

IE: It really doesn't matter how much "lift you got", it matters what you bump stop gaps end up at etc. So no matter what you started at stock, you don't want the gap to be less than that magic 1/2" - 3/4" limit. As long as you are below that limit, you're good to go as far as ride and alignment, etc.

For the butt, sure, the rig will work better with that ~ 1.5" rake, and, coincidentally, that's ~ what butt lift you get with PML Shackles.

The UCA don't add height, but, for the same "lift" they do add gap. As they also allow alignment at the higher heights, it works out that you ALSO adjust them to the same sized gap...but that same gap with the new UCA gets you a higher ride height than with the OEM UCA.

So, once you have new UCA, you can use them at PML height, up to 3" SL, or anywhere inbetween, etc....to fine tune the rake you want with the PML shackles.

 

[robcarync]

LOL

Well, sure, if you had already sagged or been set too low, you'll "Get more lift"...but, that's why we refer to the upper bump stop gap as defining the lift.

IE: It really doesn't matter how much "lift you got", it matters what you bump stop gaps end up at etc. So no matter what you started at stock, you don't want the gap to be less than that magic 1/2" - 3/4" limit. As long as you are below that limit, you're good to go as far as ride and alignment, etc.

For the butt, sure, the rig will work better with that ~ 1.5" rake, and, coincidentally, that's ~ what butt lift you get with PML Shackles.

The UCA don't add height, but, for the same "lift" they do add gap. As they also allow alignment at the higher heights, it works out that you ALSO adjust them to the same sized gap...but that same gap with the new UCA gets you a higher ride height than with the OEM UCA.

So, once you have new UCA, you can use them at PML height, up to 3" SL, or anywhere inbetween, etc....to fine tune the rake you want with the PML shackles.

TJTJ...maybe I didn't explain my point that well. I know exactly how the UCAs work with regards to re-defining the bump stop gap to ride height ratio. Yes, if your springs sag, your bump stop gaps get larger, meaning you have more room to adjust back up...but the math did not work in my instance. My point is that my starting rake was more than 1.5" ... and it wasn't because my bump stop gaps were so large. My point is that my front end was low, and my bump stop gap was fairly small.

The widely cited 1.5" stock rake and the widely cited 1.5" of lift at a 0.5" bump stop gap did not hold true in my case...the math simply didn't work. I essentially have PML shackles ONLY in the rear...and UCAs on the front adjusted to the 0.5" bump stop gap. Theoretically, I should have no rake at all. I have 1".

More so my point is that someone with PML shackles and UCAs are not automatically ignoring the function of the truck to look cool, as you suggest.

 

[SRStaff]

Most people do not put into consideration that Nissan put slightly shorter leaf springs on the later 1st gens. Shorter spring changes the shackle angle causing more lift.

 

[drbandkgb]

Most people do not put into consideration that Nissan put slightly shorter leaf springs on the later 1st gens. Shorter spring changes the shackle angle causing more lift.

This would be the first I've ever heard about that

 

[SRStaff]

Just 1/4" difference. Still enough to make a difference.

 

[TJTJ]

Good point.

Lifting the rear pushes (Levers) the front down more.

Also, every one's rig IS slightly different, and, all of the "1.5" and 1/2 - 3/4" references are guides.

BUT - When talking about the concept of "LIFT", it is meaningless w/o a baseline.

(Mostly to consolidate the info, as newbs read these things sometimes):


In other words, for any given truck, there is a maximum amount of ground clearance that it will be able to get with any given mods.

The limiting factors for our rigs are the same:

The UCA allow alignment up to a certain clearance, and, then, you will be too far out of range if you go too much higher.

An AAL and/or Shackle will lift you in back, and if your lines, etc, reach...the bow limit of the pack is your droop limit and the resistance to that is the ride height limit.

So, a shackle simply and reliably lifts you by ~ 1/2 its added length over the stock shackle's length. (3" longer than your stock shackle gets you ~ 1.5" of lift, and so forth).

If your leafs had sagged, it doesn't matter, you get that 1.5" from that shackle...but, if your pack had sagged YOUR 1.5" higher might not get you as high as someone else's rig...if there's sat higher to start with.


AAL DO NOT lift the same for every one, because they come with variables. The resistance to compression will be a little different, so some might take more weight to compress/flatten down to the same ride height/ride higher for the same weight, and so forth.


If your rig is a bit heavier, or a bit lighter, it will sit a bit lower, or higher, after adding AAL, than someone ELSE'S rig with those AAL.

As the AAL are added to the OEM pack, again, if the OEM had sagged, or, was more supportive, than someone ELSE'S pack, adding the AAL will have a proportional impact...with the saggy pack with new AAL ending up LOWER than if you started with a perky pack, etc.


So, when looking at RAKE, which is 100% dependent upon the DIFFERENCE in F/R end heights, ALL you can do is adjust the front to that gap range (1/2" - 3/4") and, what ever your butt did is what you ended up with as far as rake...as, except for adjustable shackles, there's not much you can do back there once you have added your mods.

So - if my STOCK X came from the factory with "some stop gap" and "some pack bow"...whatever they might have been....that's my baseline if I want to say "how much lift I got".


The reality is that the "amount of lift" is typically not the ultimate goal, its getting the rig to an altitude and attitude that works.


I've also seen that measuring the rake at the wrong points changes the results dramatically. The ONLY points that the "1.5 inch rake" apply to are at the front and rear ends of the sliders to the ground (Or what would be parallel, etc). If someone were to measure at the wheel arches, etc, they'd get different numbers.

I've also seen evenness of terrain, and, tire pressure and other tire related variables change the rake, as a small difference in PSI and tread wear, etc, have a surprisingly large influence on the measurements as well.

Its one reason I always recommend measuring all 4 corners.

As discussed, if you are high on one corner, it pushes you down on the other, and visa versa. I could change my "lift" by ~ 1/2" JUST from a few PSI difference for example.

So, the bottom line is that it works best with a rake, and, if you have a saggy butt, yes, its harder to max the front and have your butt high enough to compensate.

 

[robcarync]

I always measure at the pinch seams/sliders front and rear...flat garage floor with even PSI. Interestingly enough, when I first did my PML, I had a tough time since the X had 4 mismatched and unevenly worn tires. I had a left to right rake and front to back rake and all sorts of weirdness that was tough to adjust. I actually determined that my driver rear tire was brand new, so it had significantly more tread than the other bald tires. That was enough to throw off the weight distribution forward and to the passenger side. New tires and re-adjusting fixed that problem.

Anyway, TJTJ, we are basically saying the same things...I am aware of all the factors involved with determining lift height, etc. Just saying that UCAs with just PML shackles isn't by definition zero rake on every rig, since every X can be different. This is not a problem of saggy leaf springs not giving me enough lift in the rear. It is more like having a butt that is too perky and high from the start.

That is why I suggested UCAs, adjust them up to 1/2" bump stop gap, and then re-evaluate the rear as far as how much lift, if any, you need to get the stance you want.

Also, just to clarify, since as you say n00bs may be reading this...shackles lift by about 1/2 of the added length. This is simply geometry because the shackle doesn't sit perfectly vertical. It sits at about a 60* angle relative to the ground. Geometry and trig! It isn't a confusing marketing ploy to confuse you...it is just important to understand what they are telling you about the shackle. Different applications, different leaf packs, different shackle angles, etc will all play a role in that 1/2 the length guide line. The offroad companies can't control all of these other variables, so they tell you the one thing they can control and verify: the new overall length of their shackle.

 

[TJTJ]

The ~ 50% rule of thumb, as you mentioned is simple geometry...and, you are 100% correct. The ~ 50% part does assume the shackle will be at the same angle that the OEM one it replaced was at. (Give or take a little Pythagorean difference, etc...)

If you ALSO change the angle of the shackle, then, as logic would indicate, sure, you also change the amount of lift, as well as the potential distribution of up/down travel.

And, yes, I mentioned the newb issue BECAUSE I knew YOU understood.



Ideally, the shackles do sit fairly vertically, so they can swing in/out freely. A severe shackle angle typically indicates a problem.

An example of a decent shackle angle

Notice that the 90º angle is relative to the leaf pack, not the ground. The shackle can't "see" the ground...it only "sees" the frame and the pack end. For the most part, that means that added shackle length should be increasing frame to shackle mount distance at a 1:1 ratio, and that's how it achieves lift....and that 1:1 ratio at its end is what gives the 0.5:1 lift ratio for the rig.







One more clarification on the 50%'s shackle length lift ratio derivation:


Think of a board laying on the ground...and the axle as being at the center point of the board, under it. Now, think of a "Lift" as raising the board higher than the axle at that center point.

If you can only lift ONE END of that board, lifting ONE END of the board would only lift its CENTER by HALF that distance you lifted that one END.

THAT is why a 3" LONGER shackle only lifts the rig about 1.5". (If we had shackles at the OTHER end of the pack too, then two sets of 3" longer shackles WOULD give 3" of lift, etc)


As the shackle may not be hanging STRAIGHT down, the vertical distance added by a longer shackle will be proportional if the angle is the same, but, a little off from a 1:1 ratio.


To visualize this, when lifting the above board, imagine that you used a 3" stick to support lift that one end, and replaced it with a 6" long stick to "add 3"".

If the sticks ARE at a 90º angle to the ground, then the 6" stick raises the board's end by another 3", and the board's center by 1.5".


If the sticks were both at an angle, the side lifted by the leaning 3" stick would be lifted by a bit LESS than 3", and the leaning 6" stick would be lifting that board's end by less than 6", and so forth.



As you WANT the shackle to be ~ 90º to the pack, etc, you would get ~ 1/2" of lift for every 1" of added shackle length.

If your shackle angle is off, as pointed out by Rob, that ratio will also change a bit, etc.

As the end result of the effective added length is then halved to get the final lift, the differences tend to be relatively small at least...inch-wise.

So, look at your shackle angles, and see if they ARE ~ 90º to the pack eyes, and if not, think about why.

 

[Aqua Mane]

ARB is on, still waiting on the new UCA's. Surprisingly the extra weight of the ARB didn't pull the front end down at all

 

[ellisfamilyokc]

Looks good!


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[TJTJ]

ARB is on, still waiting on the new UCA's. Surprisingly the extra weight of the ARB didn't pull the front end down at all
View attachment 3257

The ARB by itself is like an 8th grader on your front end. Add a winch with wire rope, roller fairlead, etc, and its more like a HS line backer on there, and, that tends to sag things more over time than just the bumper.