Nissan lockers for $299!!!

[rokdaddy]

IMO, it's not.
Just my 2c, and I'll be interested to hear more feedback from those who actually have done it, first and second gen

I haven't heard anything convincing yet either. I think that Cyclemut covered the issues well and it's not worth rehashing after the lengthy debate.

robcarync's description of his Lokka is about what I would expect to hear. The "tightness" in the front that he describes will likely be a (manageable) problem on more slippery surfaces. In some conditions it's best to have an open diff when driving in 4wd. The Lokka doesn't allow this. I'm not saying that it's a bad or dangerous product... I'm just saying that auto lockers have strengths and weaknesses that should be carefully considered. Particularly on a daily driver.


-Rok

 

[robcarync]

I will be filming my snow/ice review in a few hours...

Mine is a daily driver, but we RARELY get snow. And honestly, I have 2 other front wheel drive sedans that handle fine in the snow that we get in NC. Not to mention when we do get snow, everywhere shuts down, so no one expects you to be at work anyway As a result of my specific situation, I didn't factor snow driving too high in my decision making process. I did Google around some, and like here, there were several varying opinions.

North Carolina just happens to be getting snow and ice right now. Already about 6 inches and not stopping anytime soon. I am "off the clock" at 5pm so will test it out and offer my observations. Note that as a native North Carolinian, I don't drive much in snow. As a result, I instinctively drive verrrrrry slow anyway, but in a controlled environment, I will try to test how it behaves in different situations.

 

[rokdaddy]

Thanks man.... I've been really curious to see how these perform on ice. It seems to me that a a solid sheet of ice may not provide the resistance needed to unlock the "outside" wheel in a turn. Add the slightest bit of throttle and I'm pretty sure that it will stay locked through a turn on solid ice. You're our best chance at having a clue about these things.

Enjoy the snow!

-Rok

 

[robcarync]

Here is my youtube video reviewing the snow performance of the Lokka on first gen on snow/ice. A couple turns in my neighborhood, onto a main road that was plowed with packed ice, and a gravel road with about 8 inches of snow/sleet that was untouched, and a tight U-turn at the end. Speeds ranging from 15-30 miles per hour.

On snow and ice, I don't think it differentiated at all except during the tight U-turn. On snow and ice, it doesn't NEED to differentiate. The tires just slip and slide over the ice, as opposed to the gears sliding over each other. I was able to steer and turn without issue. The tires both being driven, want to return to center, which is felt through feedback in the steering linkages. However, you are still able to turn, assuming you aren't driving crazy. With both tires being driven, it felt VERY stable going in straight lines, and even slinging the wheel back and forth at 30 miles per hour didn't even begin to act like it was going to lose control. When slinging the wheel abruptly, you do get a little understeer in the sense that you do not turn as sharp as the tires/steering wheel is pointed at first. However, I don't think an open differential would be better here...the front tires are on snow and ice, so if you turn them abruptly, of course they won't whip the vehicle around on a dime...the Lokka made it much more stable, though. An emergency maneuver like this in the snow and ice would likely lead you in a ditch otherwise. This was with me purposely trying to aggressively steer, though. I had absolutely no issues driving normally (normal for me).

As I stated in a previous post, my bigger concern would be higher traction surfaces where differentiation is NECESSARY. Will it ratchet easy enough to prevent the drive line wind up? Higher traction surfaces are not the Lokka's strength. On that note, it may be more difficult on lighter snow where the roads are patchy. If they are that patchy, you probably don't need 4WD, though.

For the record, I did spend last year in Iowa with a lot of snow driving with the stock open differential. This video was the VERY FIRST time driving the Lokka in the snow. My comments are sometimes obvious and redundant...I was just narrating what I was doing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUAaYBW5sVI

 

[rokdaddy]

Nice job sir.

It sounds like you really like your Lokka; I’m sure that there are a bunch of folks out there who appreciate your willingness to try this out. It sounds like the Lokka may work really well for you.


Your video reaffirmed some of my assumptions though.


The Lokka appears to be staying locked most of the time while driving on snow/ice and for a lot of folks, that can be a bad thing. Although the locker gives a feeling of stability when driving in a straight line, that steering “tightness” or its tendency to return to center means that your tires are “scrubbing” on the road surface and you are losing traction along with steering responsiveness. Tire scrub is the last thing you want to deal with in icy conditions on curvy roads. Also, the fact that you could feel the resistance is probably a sign that you were getting relatively good traction despite the snowy conditions.

If you are mostly driving on straight, flat roads at speeds under 30mph, I can see how this wouldn’t be much of a problem. It becomes more of a problem at highway speeds and on curvy/ steep roads. Also, if you only have to deal with serious winter driving conditions a few times a year, this probably isn’t much of a concern. If you lived in an area that has winter driving conditions 20-40 days a year, it would probably become more of a big deal. I personally, need all the help I can get when driving to work at 6am on the curvy, icy highways around my house.:smile:


Now I’m interested to hear how the Lokka performs on solid rock. Based on what I’ve heard so far, I’m hoping to hear that the differentiation works well. That would likely change the way a lot of folks feel about auto lockers.


-Rok

 

[robcarync]

Nice job sir.

It sounds like you really like your Lokka; I’m sure that there are a bunch of folks out there who appreciate your willingness to try this out. It sounds like the Lokka may work really well for you.


Your video reaffirmed some of my assumptions though.


The Lokka appears to be staying locked most of the time while driving on snow/ice and for a lot of folks, that can be a bad thing. Although the locker gives a feeling of stability when driving in a straight line, that steering “tightness” or its tendency to return to center means that your tires are “scrubbing” on the road surface and you are losing traction along with steering responsiveness. Tire scrub is the last thing you want to deal with in icy conditions on curvy roads. Also, the fact that you could feel the resistance is probably a sign that you were getting relatively good traction despite the snowy conditions.

If you are mostly driving on straight, flat roads at speeds under 30mph, I can see how this wouldn’t be much of a problem. It becomes more of a problem at highway speeds and on curvy/ steep roads. Also, if you only have to deal with serious winter driving conditions a few times a year, this probably isn’t much of a concern. If you lived in an area that has winter driving conditions 20-40 days a year, it would probably become more of a big deal. I personally, need all the help I can get when driving to work at 6am on the curvy, icy highways around my house.:smile:


Now I’m interested to hear how the Lokka performs on solid rock. Based on what I’ve heard so far, I’m hoping to hear that the differentiation works well. That would likely change the way a lot of folks feel about auto lockers.


-Rok

I like the Lokka so far...that was the first time I had a chance to use it. I would agree that the Lokka is staying locked, as designed. That does mean that your outside tire will scrub while turning...but that is why 4WD is intended for low traction surfaces. With a locked front end, the difference in wheel travel is made up by either 1) the tire sliding/scrubbing on the surface or 2) the ratcheting (I know you know this, just talking). The ratcheting occurs on higher traction surfaces as the ground pushes the tire, and the tire scrubs when the tire/road traction is too low to ratchet the gears. If it does not ratchet, only the one tire should be scrubbing, as one tire is still travelling the same 1:1 ratio with the ground, thus the scrub (from my understanding). So on that note, the difference from open to Lokka is that one tire can slip, and you can still get power to the ground.

Having one tire scrub in the ice and snow, to me, still not sure how bad that can be. Seems like you would still have steering from one front tire (as you would with an open diff), and your traction for steering is still going to be limited by the tire/surface friction. Not saying you are wrong...as mentioned, I am not an expert of the dynamics of snow driving, so I am kind of just thinking through this on the fly here. It just seems like on snow and ice, differentiation would make no difference if it is that slick...and if it is kind of slushy or snowy, but still want 4wd, you would have enough traction to ratchet the gears.

In North Carolina, I need to be able to drive in snow good enough to get beer when I am snowed in, or get home and not end up looking like the clowns on the news.

What is the max allowable speed in 4Hi? Maybe us southerners are just n00bs when it comes to snow driving, but my general rule of thinking is that if you are going highway speeds, you don't need 4WD, and if you need 4WD, you shouldn't be going the posted speed limit.

Anyway, you are welcome for the review, I had fun playing in the snow and testing it out.


Not trying to debate anyone or anything, in the end, only you can decide what will work for your situation...just giving my initial feedback for my snow use.

 

[dhyde79]

I like the Lokka so far...that was the first time I had a chance to use it. I would agree that the Lokka is staying locked, as designed. That does mean that your outside tire will scrub while turning...but that is why 4WD is intended for low traction surfaces. With a locked front end, the difference in wheel travel is made up by either 1) the tire sliding/scrubbing on the surface or 2) the ratcheting (I know you know this, just talking). The ratcheting occurs on higher traction surfaces as the ground pushes the tire, and the tire scrubs when the tire/road traction is too low to ratchet the gears. If it does not ratchet, only the outside tire should be scrubbing, as the inside tire is still travelling the same speed as the drivetrain and it is the outside tire that can't keep up, thus the scrub (from my understanding). So on that note, the difference from open to Lokka is that the inside wheel has the power as opposed to the outside (or none of the front wheels)? Having one tire scrub in the ice and snow, to me, still not sure how bad that can be. Seems like you would still have steering from one front tire (as you would with an open diff), and your traction for steering is still going to be limited by the tire/surface friction. Not saying you are wrong...as mentioned, I am not an expert of the dynamics of snow driving, so I am kind of just thinking through this on the fly here. It just seems like on snow and ice, differentiation would make no difference if it is that slick...and if it is kind of slushy or snowy, but still want 4wd, you would have enough traction to ratchet the gears. In North Carolina, I need to be able to drive in snow good enough to get beer when I am snowed in, or get home and not end up looking like the clowns on the news. What is the max allowable speed in 4Hi? Maybe us southerners are just n00bs when it comes to snow driving, but my general rule of thinking is that if you are going highway speeds, you don't need 4WD, and if you need 4WD, you shouldn't be going the posted speed limit. Anyway, you are welcome for the review, I had fun playing in the snow and testing it out. Not trying to debate anyone or anything, in the end, only you can decide what will work for your situation...just giving my initial feedback for my snow use.

So, the point of worry in regards to tire scrub/slipping is at what point does it cause potential to lose grip on the other tire as well causing your turn to become plow.

As for max allowable speed in 4wd, there is none for 4hi, every piece of your driveline is already moving that fast, in 4hi they're all just engaged and driving instead of freewheeling. The only reason there's a top speed in 4lo is because of redline and gear ratios.

 

[robcarync]

I see. I would still think that if both of your tires plow, you have turned too fast for the conditions, and you would have plowed forward whether locked or not. No way to tell for sure now...makes for a complicated physics problem with too many variables.

Just a few more thoughts (not to debate anyone...just explaining how my brain deciphers this situation, I am open to other interpretations)

Just thinking about it conceptually, it ratchets only when one tire is pushed faster than the other. Similarly, in low traction where it can't ratchet, there is only one "difference in speed" if that makes sense. The differentiation has to come from the tires not keeping up with each other. The truck will follow/steer from which ever tire has more friction with the ground, and the other tire will either slip because it can't go fast enough, or slip because it is spinning too fast for the arc it is on. This of course depends on whether or not the inside or outside tire has more friction.

For a brain teaser: Pretend you are driving with the left half of the X on ice and the right half on dry pavement, and pretend this 50/50 road split follows you wherever you turn. You turn left. The right front tire has more friction, and will define your steering arc. It is also the outside tire, so it would need to travel further than the left. As a result, the left tire slips on the ice, as it spins more rotations than what is needed to travel along the distance of the steering arc. Now you turn right. The front right still has the most friction, but now it is on the inside. The truck would still follow the tire with more friction, but this time the front left tire slips on the ice because it not spinning enough rotations to keep up with the right tire.

Does one tire needing to go faster cause the slower tire to slip too? I don't see how or why it would...it doesn't need to "keep up with" anything. If I am in a straight line on snow and ice, and gun the throttle, i can get all tires to slip (well, 3/4 since the rear is open). If I am going fast in the snow and slam on my non-ABS brakes, I could induce sliding. I would think that would be the analogous situation to having both front tires plow and lose traction. You could maybe say that the added drag of having to scrub one tire could cause your other tire to slip...but then again, if the scrub tire has that much friction, the the other one has to have more, or it would be scrubbing instead.

It seems it is all about the differential in force, differential in friction, etc from side to side.

Since my hubs unlock, my driveline does not spin up to highway speeds as if I was free-wheeling. I thought there was a max speed listed in there somewhere, at least for 1.5 gen. I could be wrong though. Just curious.

 

[Frogstar7055]

What is the max allowable speed in 4Hi? Maybe us southerners are just n00bs when it comes to snow driving, but my general rule of thinking is that if you are going highway speeds, you don't need 4WD, and if you need 4WD, you shouldn't be going the posted speed limit.

As a pure bred Yankee and former Ohio native of over 30 years I can tell you you don't run highway speed on ice no matter what your driving,not if you want to stay on the road.

 

[dhyde79]

As a pure bred Yankee and former Ohio native of over 30 years I can tell you you don't run highway speed on ice no matter what your driving,not if you want to stay on the road.

Agreed, I didn't say in crappy conditions you should, I just said (at least on a 2nd gen) locked in or not, speed is speed. 2hi or 4hi it's all the same...

 

[xterror04]

Idk where your getting there's no max allowable speed for 4 high... Gen 1 the manual states 55 mph gen 2 states 60 mph.... And realistically you shouldn't even be going that fast if you need 4wd

Good explanations and write ups Rob!

 

[dhyde79]

Idk where your getting there's no max allowable speed for 4 high... Gen 1 the manual states 55 mph gen 2 states 60 mph.... And realistically you shouldn't even be going that fast if you need 4wd Good explanations and write ups Rob!

Mechanics is where I'm getting it. Tell me, on a 2nd gen, if the hubs are always engaged, which means the front diff is always spinning, which means the front driveshaft is spinning, it's just not being driven by the motor, what's the MECHANICAL difference between 4H and 2H, it's placement of a switch on the dash, and whether it's putting power to the front axle or not. I bet CORR trucks and other high speed 4wd rigs would say that too if they had user manuals written to keep the company safe from liability suits and stupidity...

 

[robcarync]

I emailed Lokka with regards to differentiating and whether or not you need to let off the gas when turning. I know there was some concern with power to the drive train making it so it can't differentiate:

Hi Rob,
That is a well thought out question!

If there is lots of traction, then the unit will unlock as you corner.
The traction will force the wheel to roll faster... leading to unlocking.

If there is not so much traction, then it depends on how much traction there is, what style of tire, what tire pressure and how much the gas is on.
It is a balance of all those factors.

So, if you are hard on the gas but the surface is loose, then both wheels will be losing traction, not matter if you are straight ahead or cornering.
By being hard on the gas, you are forcing the unit to stay locked and keeping the tires spinning.

If you were to drive gently in a circle, even on very soft surfaces, you can sometimes hear the Lokka is unlocked, but when power is applied it instantly locks.

Does that help?

kind regards
RJ

It seems it will differentiate with power being applied, but it depends on how much traction the tires have. With the cross shaft on the cam gears, you have more forces to overcome to differentiate, so you need a higher friction surface. If your foot is off the gas, the tire just needs enough traction to overcome the springs to differentiate. That explains why I could hear the ratcheting in my U-turn even on the snow, because the 2nd half of the turn I let off the gas. Reapplying the gas will then lock it back up. If it was a higher traction surface, I could have stayed on the gas to make it differentiate.

As far as the difference between free wheeling the front drive line and actually driving with it, it comes down to the forces in the components. Free wheeling, it is disconnected at the transfer case, and there is no resistance other than the inertia of the rotating parts. Engaging 4WD means half the engine power is going through the transfer case and front driveline, and is used to pull the car forward. Significantly more force is required to assist in pulling the car forward than just free wheeling a tire. The rotating speeds may be the same, but the forces are different. Now, of course, the forces in the driveline are not directly related to speed, so how Nissan came up with that spec, I am not sure...but there is a difference.

 

[robcarync]

Thought I would offer one more update on the Lokka performance thus far, and then will let the thread die out. I did get to take it offroad for a little bit yesterday, which was mostly mud/dirty roads/ruts etc. Pic attached below of the type of trails we were on. Just wanted to give feedback on my experiences, and figured this was the most relevant place to post it.

As I originally stated, my biggest concern was how the Lokka would work when offroading on trails with decent traction, that did not NEED a locked front end. You can see on these trails, there was some water/mud, but with the exception of some low lying swampy mud pits, there was decent traction connecting the obstacles. I could not even notice the Lokka differentiating. Maybe the dirt/mud was slick enough to not need it, or maybe the windows down with music playing (though not very loud) was enough to drown it out. I had no issues turning the wheel, even when navigating in tight areas and three point turning. For comparison, on a dry gravel road, I can feel the resistance in the steering, but I still find that the tires usually just slip on the loose rocks before it differentiates. So, somewhere between dry gravel, and moist dirt/mud/water, the steering resistance goes away. I was able to steer, handle and control the truck without any issues...I actually wasn't even aware that the Lokka was there until I hit some of the tougher parts and really needed it.

Not to mention, the added traction in the swampy parts and the muddy hill climbs...undeniable. (Not that anyone was debating the traction benefits of a locker...) But I would say, out of the various lift components, armor, etc that I have invested in...the locked front end makes the absolute most difference on the trail

 

[caseycamby]

Well put, sir! I still don't know if I should get one.. It'll probably be more apealing to me once I get a DD haha

 

[robcarync]

Well put, sir! I still don't know if I should get one.. It'll probably be more apealing to me once I get a DD haha

From the DD stand point, the Lokka has no impact on driveability. You just have to worry about breaking things once you decide to start trying tougher lines

 

[Intender]

From the DD stand point, the Lokka has no impact on driveability. You just have to worry about breaking things once you decide to start trying tougher lines

The big question is are you going to try dickey bell again?

 

[caseycamby]

The big question is are you going to try dickey bell again?

That IS the question haha

 

[Frogstar7055]

My diff drop bushings are on the way and then I'll finally be doing my install.

 

[robcarync]

The big question is are you going to try dickey bell again?

I do agree...THAT is the question. I can use the Lokka to continue wheeling smaller things and just be really capable and conservative to lower my risk of breaking stuff...or I can use the increased capability to tackle larger obstacles...and keep on breaking things...

My guess, based on my wheeling history, is probably yes...but even with the Lokka, I think my mild mannered all terrain tires are limiting me more on those rocks

My diff drop bushings are on the way and then I'll finally be doing my install.

So....I see I still haven't talked out out of doing the diff drop bushings yet...

 

[Intender]

i think I am going to pass on installing the diff drop. I dropped my truck off at my buddies shop tonight after spending most of the day gathering up lose ends and tools I would need for the install, and to do my centerlink. At minimum I will do the centerlink and steering stuff tomorrow and see how it looks for doing the lokka. if all goes well I should be out there tomorrow morning tearing stuff apart and hopefully have it back together by friday.

And Rob, those tires are probably holding you back quite a bit. You just couldnt get any traction on Dickey bell that day.

 

[xterror04]

Yeah Rob time for some 33's!

 

[robcarync]

hahaha it's the tread, not the size that holds me back

Getting married in May and having a honeymoon to pay for ... puts 33s on the back burner for now...

It hasn't stopped me from browing craigslist though...can't decide if I want to go with 15 inch rims, or keep stock rims...and if I want 33s or 32s with a more aggressive tread...

ohhh the options....